Born into a family of Italian immigrants, Paulo Mendes Da Rocha studied architecture at Mackenzie University in São Paulo (Brazil). His desire to become an architect came from his father, who was an engineer. He does not like the word ‘creation’ in architecture. For him, architecture is the result of a thought process guided objectively by the duality of necessity and desire.
Paulo Mendes Da Rocha
pmr@sti.com.br
Technical sheet of this architecture video clip
Journalist : Emma C. Dessouroux
Cameraman : Mister Emma
Editing : Cristina Dias
Direction : Emma C. Dessouroux
Production : Les Délires Productions
Translation : Strakermedia
Rereading : Serge Ryckoort / Emelire
Subtitles : Strakermedia
Portuguese Subtitles
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00:00:13,360 –> 00:00:19,320
Eu presumo ser um arquiteto
formado aqui em São Paulo
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00:00:20,400 –> 00:00:22,360
na universidade Mackenzie
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00:00:22,440 –> 00:00:25,160
e tendo nascido no estado
do Espírito Santo,
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00:00:25,800 –> 00:00:27,960
que é um estado ao norte
do Rio de Janeiro,
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00:00:28,040 –> 00:00:29,720
entre Rio de Janeiro e Bahia.
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00:00:30,400 –> 00:00:32,440
A família da minha mãe é de lá.
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00:00:32,520 –> 00:00:36,240
Imigrantes italianos
que já desembarcaram lá.
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00:00:36,320 –> 00:00:39,400
Já chegaram aqui casados,
com dois filhos.
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00:00:39,480 –> 00:00:42,920
Minha mãe foi o primeiro filho
nascido no Brasil.
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00:00:43,720 –> 00:00:46,840
Meu pai é de uma família baiana…
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00:00:48,200 –> 00:00:49,760
porém que foram para o Rio de Janeiro.
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00:00:49,840 –> 00:00:52,080
Meu pai estudou engenharia
no Rio de Janeiro.
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00:00:52,480 –> 00:00:56,720
Formado, foi construir
uma ponte no Espírito Santo
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00:00:56,800 –> 00:00:59,400
e casou com a filha
de um empreiteiro italiano
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00:00:59,480 –> 00:01:01,600
que encontrou lá.
Eis a minha origem.
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00:01:01,680 –> 00:01:05,240
Com isso, o meu nome
é todo da família do meu pai.
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00:01:05,320 –> 00:01:07,120
Que é Mendes da Rocha.
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00:01:07,880 –> 00:01:10,200
Origem portuguesa,
sem dúvida nenhuma.
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00:01:10,920 –> 00:01:14,840
Eu não fui registrado com o nome
da família da minha mãe, que é…
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00:01:16,160 –> 00:01:17,640
Terencio Serafini.
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00:01:17,720 –> 00:01:22,800
Mas eu vim com meu pai e minha mãe
pra São Paulo,
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00:01:22,880 –> 00:01:27,280
quando tinha cinco, seis anos de idade,
e nunca mais saímos daqui.
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00:01:27,360 –> 00:01:30,400
Minha mãe era professora de formação.
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00:01:30,480 –> 00:01:34,040
E trabalhou com concurso,
no governo, etc.
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00:01:34,120 –> 00:01:36,240
na escola pública, como professora.
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00:01:36,320 –> 00:01:40,200
Portanto me educou
com esses horizontes, sendo que,
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00:01:40,280 –> 00:01:41,680
meu pai era engenheiro.
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00:01:42,080 –> 00:01:46,640
Você pode imaginar
por que eu acabei arquiteto, né?
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00:01:55,200 –> 00:01:58,400
O meu interesse na arquitetura surgiu,
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00:01:59,280 –> 00:02:02,560
se isso não for muito prosaico
de se dizer,
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00:02:02,640 –> 00:02:05,680
pela própria questão da arquitetura,
quando eu percebi
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00:02:05,760 –> 00:02:09,200
que diante da engenharia
que eu tinha sido educado,
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00:02:09,280 –> 00:02:10,480
vendo meu pai…
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00:02:10,560 –> 00:02:13,040
Meu pai era professor
da escola politécnica,
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00:02:13,120 –> 00:02:14,520
da universidade de São Paulo,
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00:02:14,600 –> 00:02:18,120
tornou-se um homem muito ilustre,
enquanto engenheiro,
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00:02:18,200 –> 00:02:19,600
um pequeno parênteses,
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00:02:19,680 –> 00:02:22,480
e professor de uma cadeira cujo título,
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hoje está desdobrada,
esta cadeira, mas é uma maravilha
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00:02:26,480 –> 00:02:30,320
porque é « Navegação Interior:
portos, rios e canais ».
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00:02:31,200 –> 00:02:34,840
Eu então me apaixonei sempre,
por essa questão toda
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00:02:35,680 –> 00:02:39,600
e talvez, de um modo edipiano,
sempre tinha escrúpulo de…
43
00:02:40,440 –> 00:02:43,280
eu também ser um engenheiro,
não sabia…
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00:02:44,720 –> 00:02:49,760
E percebi com tudo isso, entretanto,
a questão da transformação da natureza.
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00:02:49,840 –> 00:02:53,960
Quando eu percebi que a arquitetura
justamente se dedicava a isso,
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00:02:54,680 –> 00:02:56,920
a construir a cidade, digamos.
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00:02:57,000 –> 00:03:01,080
A realizar o habitat humano no planeta,
eu me encantei com a questão
48
00:03:01,160 –> 00:03:02,840
e não tive muita dúvida.
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00:03:02,920 –> 00:03:05,120
É claro que eu tinha colegas,
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00:03:05,640 –> 00:03:07,800
alguns outros, que também…
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00:03:08,920 –> 00:03:12,840
foram estudar arquitetura,
trocavam-se ideias…
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00:03:13,280 –> 00:03:16,920
foi se formando um clima.
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00:03:17,000 –> 00:03:22,480
Um cenário muito propício
quanto à idealização
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00:03:22,560 –> 00:03:26,640
da ideia de arquitetura como forma
de conhecimento, compreende?
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00:03:26,720 –> 00:03:29,200
Eu fiz um curso, seja o que for,
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00:03:29,280 –> 00:03:32,600
mais dentro da minha cabeça
do que na sala de aula.
57
00:03:42,400 –> 00:03:48,360
Arquitetura é a um tempo só.
Não partes somadas.
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00:03:48,440 –> 00:03:52,320
Mas a um tempo só,
arte, ciência e técnica.
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00:03:52,400 –> 00:03:53,880
Eu vejo…
60
00:03:54,560 –> 00:03:55,760
Não só eu.
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00:03:55,840 –> 00:03:58,800
Eu concordo com quem vê assim.
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00:03:58,880 –> 00:04:02,120
Arquitetura como uma forma peculiar
de conhecimento.
63
00:04:02,200 –> 00:04:04,360
Peculiar ao gênero humano.
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00:04:04,440 –> 00:04:05,920
Nós nascemos arquitetos.
65
00:04:06,960 –> 00:04:10,360
Quando o homem escolheu
habitar uma gruta
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00:04:10,440 –> 00:04:13,680
ou ficar em torno daquela fogueira,
três ou quatro, que fosse,
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00:04:13,760 –> 00:04:17,440
tava fazendo uma casa,
uma cidade, etc.
68
00:04:23,600 –> 00:04:25,600
Se você sabe o que quer dizer,
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00:04:25,680 –> 00:04:28,840
no caso da arquitetura,
o que você quer construir,
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00:04:29,240 –> 00:04:32,000
a técnica impõe o material, etc.
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00:04:32,080 –> 00:04:34,520
A construção, é ela que prefere,
não é você.
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00:04:34,600 –> 00:04:37,480
Conforme a ideia,
é como um discurso.
73
00:04:38,760 –> 00:04:41,240
As palavras se impõem
para você dizer aquilo.
74
00:04:41,320 –> 00:04:44,080
Você não pode hoje,
fazer uma ponte de pedra,
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00:04:44,160 –> 00:04:48,000
sem aglutinante nenhum,
sem cimento, mas…
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00:04:48,080 –> 00:04:53,080
poder, pode. Você vai repetir
uma ponte romana de arco, etc.
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00:04:53,760 –> 00:04:55,440
Portanto…
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00:04:56,640 –> 00:05:02,720
é uma questão de realização
de necessidades e desejos humanos.
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00:05:03,320 –> 00:05:05,040
Sempre, portanto, urgente.
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00:05:05,520 –> 00:05:08,320
O fato de fazer isso ou aquilo. Construir.
81
00:05:08,920 –> 00:05:10,960
Porque o arquiteto vê,
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00:05:11,040 –> 00:05:14,800
não só o arquiteto, mas com muita clareza,
o arquiteto vê
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00:05:15,480 –> 00:05:21,760
que nós estamos, enquanto ser humano,
enquanto vivente,
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00:05:21,840 –> 00:05:25,520
condenados a transformar
ideia em coisa.
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00:05:25,600 –> 00:05:28,080
A pura ideia
ninguém sabe o que é, nunca.
86
00:05:28,560 –> 00:05:31,600
Assim como uma poesia,
você tem que escrever
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00:05:31,680 –> 00:05:34,160
com as 25 letras do alfabeto,
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seja lá italiano, inglês…
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00:05:38,080 –> 00:05:40,800
em português, na língua que for.
25 letras.
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00:05:41,200 –> 00:05:45,280
Os recursos são muito poucos.
A imaginação é infinita.
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00:05:51,720 –> 00:05:55,600
A palavra « criação » não me agrada.
Eu não crio nada.
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00:05:56,040 –> 00:05:58,320
O fruto do trabalho não é uma criação.
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00:05:59,080 –> 00:06:04,920
É uma conclusão de uma reflexão
objetivamente dirigida
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00:06:05,000 –> 00:06:08,760
para essa dualidade:
necessidades e desejos.
95
00:06:09,320 –> 00:06:14,040
A necessidade de ter um sentido
pragmático prático absoluto.
96
00:06:14,840 –> 00:06:17,800
Sentar pra comer é mais confortável
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00:06:17,880 –> 00:06:20,600
então a cadeira é necessária.
98
00:06:21,960 –> 00:06:26,640
Então para as necessidades é fácil
descrever as virtudes da cadeira.
99
00:06:26,720 –> 00:06:31,480
Inclinação do encosto, altura
em relação ao plano da mesa.
100
00:06:31,560 –> 00:06:33,360
Se é pra escrever ou pra comer.
101
00:06:34,120 –> 00:06:37,520
Já em relação ao desejo,
102
00:06:37,920 –> 00:06:43,320
é indizível, digamos,
o horizonte da questão.
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00:06:43,920 –> 00:06:47,560
Esse desejo tem a ver com o sentido,
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00:06:47,640 –> 00:06:49,320
que também é indizível,
105
00:06:49,400 –> 00:06:52,520
mas a configuração
daquilo que chamamos beleza.
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00:06:52,600 –> 00:06:56,200
Ou seja, o objeto dessa questão,
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o produzir a beleza, é seduzir o outro.
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00:07:09,240 –> 00:07:11,760
Pra falar a verdade,
talvez seja ignorância minha,
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00:07:11,840 –> 00:07:14,080
não sei bem
o que quer dizer brutalismo.
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00:07:14,160 –> 00:07:15,440
Manter…
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00:07:16,680 –> 00:07:21,920
as edificações, os objetos
com a aparência exata
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00:07:22,000 –> 00:07:24,720
do material com que foi feito,
por exemplo,
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00:07:24,800 –> 00:07:28,440
deixar o concreto armado
sem revestimento, etc.
114
00:07:28,520 –> 00:07:31,960
Se for isso,
um dos aspectos do brutalismo.
115
00:07:32,040 –> 00:07:35,720
Mas chamar de brutalismo
não fica muito bem, na minha opinião.
116
00:07:36,200 –> 00:07:38,000
Porque afinal de contas…
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00:07:39,160 –> 00:07:40,880
qualquer catedral…
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00:07:43,240 –> 00:07:46,560
medieval, gótica,
qualquer catedral histórica…
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00:07:47,920 –> 00:07:50,760
não se revestiam aquelas pedras todas.
120
00:07:51,160 –> 00:07:52,560
É sempre brutalismo.
121
00:07:52,640 –> 00:07:55,440
Nada mais brutalista
do que uma pirâmide do Cairo.
122
00:07:55,520 –> 00:07:58,280
Portanto, não vejo muita novidade nisso.
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00:07:58,360 –> 00:08:01,000
Em você admirar.
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00:08:01,880 –> 00:08:07,880
Fazer com que aquele atributo,
desejo na coisa, surja…
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00:08:08,960 –> 00:08:13,080
da construção em si mesma.
Bem clara e visível.
126
00:08:13,160 –> 00:08:17,160
Acho muito constante
na história do homem.
127
00:08:17,240 –> 00:08:19,280
Não é dessa ou daquela época.
128
00:08:19,360 –> 00:08:23,760
Ou seja,
pra encurtar a conversa, como se diz.
129
00:08:23,840 –> 00:08:27,520
Não gosto muito da expressão
nem da definição « brutalismo ».
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00:08:27,600 –> 00:08:31,120
Muito menos aplicada na arquitetura
que se faz aqui no Brasil.
131
00:08:32,280 –> 00:08:36,560
Tudo o que é essencial, na América
era de se esperar que fosse assim.
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00:08:36,640 –> 00:08:38,520
O resto é colonialismo puro.
133
00:08:38,600 –> 00:08:42,600
Representar aquilo que eles são.
Não o que somos nós.
134
00:08:43,800 –> 00:08:45,400
Ou o que queremos ser.
135
00:08:45,480 –> 00:08:47,160
Não somos nada, justamente.
136
00:08:47,240 –> 00:08:49,360
É um discurso que se inicia
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00:08:49,440 –> 00:08:53,280
numa consciência que se forma,
digamos, de um modo novo
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00:08:53,360 –> 00:08:57,640
diante da exuberância da natureza
que aqui estava,
139
00:08:57,720 –> 00:09:01,160
principalmente com o conhecimento
dos nativos daqui
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00:09:01,240 –> 00:09:04,240
que tinham técnicas e modos
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00:09:04,680 –> 00:09:08,360
de excelência,
do ponto de vista urbanístico
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00:09:08,440 –> 00:09:11,320
que foram, justamente,
massacrados, desprezados
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00:09:11,400 –> 00:09:13,640
pela estupidez da política colonial.
144
00:09:15,480 –> 00:09:19,800
Eu não sou bon vivant,
na minha opinião,
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00:09:19,880 –> 00:09:22,560
de um modo destacável.
146
00:09:23,040 –> 00:09:24,440
Eu vivo bem com meus amigos,
147
00:09:24,520 –> 00:09:28,240
tanto que todos eles, então,
são bon vivants também, não é?
148
00:09:28,320 –> 00:09:31,400
Eu gosto muito de sair do escritório,
sempre fiz isso.
149
00:09:32,560 –> 00:09:34,680
Cinco e meia, seis da tarde.
150
00:09:35,360 –> 00:09:37,520
Muitas vezes eu passei três…
151
00:09:37,600 –> 00:09:42,480
Duas noites, já passei, seguidas,
sem dormir, dentro do escritório,
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00:09:42,560 –> 00:09:44,440
pra entregar um projeto, etc.
153
00:09:44,520 –> 00:09:46,520
Mas isso é uma exceção.
154
00:09:46,600 –> 00:09:52,160
Normalmente eu fazia assim:
17h30 ia pra um certo bar.
155
00:09:52,240 –> 00:09:56,480
São Paulo tem vários,
mas o dos meus amigos era esse.
156
00:09:57,200 –> 00:10:02,440
E lá estavam todos os amigos,
você nem tinha uma mesa fixa.
157
00:10:02,520 –> 00:10:05,680
Ia pro balcão, depois sentava
um pouco numa mesa, ou em outra,
158
00:10:05,760 –> 00:10:07,000
era uma diversão.
159
00:10:07,080 –> 00:10:09,080
E saía dali tarde da noite.
160
00:10:10,000 –> 00:10:11,680
Mas você vê, por outro lado,
161
00:10:13,120 –> 00:10:15,680
eu peço desculpas
por eu mesmo dizer isso,
162
00:10:15,760 –> 00:10:19,240
mas me dá a impressão que,
pelo interesse dos outros,
163
00:10:19,320 –> 00:10:21,080
minha obra é bem feita.
164
00:10:21,640 –> 00:10:23,040
Portanto…
165
00:10:25,000 –> 00:10:27,280
eu me dedico muito ao meu trabalho.
166
00:10:28,040 –> 00:10:32,880
Agora… acabou isso, o resto é farra.
French Subtitles
1
00:00:13,360 –> 00:00:19,320
Je prétends être un architecte
formé ici, à São Paulo,
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00:00:20,400 –> 00:00:22,360
à l’université Mackenzie,
3
00:00:22,440 –> 00:00:25,160
et je suis né dans l’État d’Espírito Santo
4
00:00:25,760 –> 00:00:27,960
qui est au nord de Rio de Janeiro,
5
00:00:28,040 –> 00:00:30,320
entre Rio de Janeiro et Bahia.
6
00:00:30,400 –> 00:00:32,440
La famille de ma mère est de là-bas.
7
00:00:32,520 –> 00:00:36,240
Des immigrés italiens
qui sont arrivés ici.
8
00:00:36,320 –> 00:00:39,400
Ils sont arrivés ici, mariés avec deux enfants.
9
00:00:39,480 –> 00:00:42,920
Ma mère est la première fille
née au Brésil.
10
00:00:43,720 –> 00:00:46,840
La famille de mon père est de Bahia.
11
00:00:48,200 –> 00:00:52,400
Mais ils sont allés à Rio de Janeiro.
Mon père y a étudié l’ingénierie.
12
00:00:52,480 –> 00:00:56,560
Après ses études, il est allé
à Espírito Santo construire un pont
13
00:00:56,640 –> 00:00:59,400
et a épousé la fille
d’un entrepreneur italien
14
00:00:59,480 –> 00:01:01,600
rencontrée là-bas. C’est mon origine.
15
00:01:01,680 –> 00:01:05,240
Mon nom de famille renvoie
à la famille de mon père,
16
00:01:05,320 –> 00:01:07,120
les Mendes da Rocha.
17
00:01:07,880 –> 00:01:10,200
Sans doute d’origine portugaise.
18
00:01:10,960 –> 00:01:12,520
Je ne suis pas enregistré
19
00:01:12,600 –> 00:01:15,080
avec le nom de la famille
de ma mère, qui est…
20
00:01:16,160 –> 00:01:17,640
Terencio Serafini.
21
00:01:17,720 –> 00:01:22,800
Mais je suis venu avec mon père
et ma mère à São Paulo,
22
00:01:22,880 –> 00:01:27,280
quand j’avais cinq ou six ans,
et je n’en suis jamais reparti.
23
00:01:27,360 –> 00:01:30,400
Ma mère était enseignante,
24
00:01:30,480 –> 00:01:34,040
elle a réussi un examen du gouvernement
25
00:01:34,120 –> 00:01:36,240
et a enseigné dans une école publique.
26
00:01:36,320 –> 00:01:39,720
Donc elle m’a éduqué,
et avec ces horizons,
27
00:01:40,200 –> 00:01:42,000
avec un père ingénieur,
28
00:01:42,080 –> 00:01:46,640
vous imaginez bien
pourquoi je suis devenu architecte.
29
00:01:55,200 –> 00:01:58,400
Mon intérêt pour l’architecture a émergé,
30
00:01:59,400 –> 00:02:02,560
s’il n’est pas trop prosaïque de le dire,
31
00:02:02,640 –> 00:02:06,280
concernant l’architecture en elle-même,
quand j’ai compris,
32
00:02:06,360 –> 00:02:09,200
ayant grandi dans le monde
de l’ingénierie,
33
00:02:09,280 –> 00:02:10,480
en voyant mon père…
34
00:02:10,560 –> 00:02:13,040
Mon père était professeur
à l’école polytechnique
35
00:02:13,120 –> 00:02:14,520
de l’université de São Paulo.
36
00:02:14,600 –> 00:02:18,120
En tant qu’ingénieur,
il est devenu très illustre,
37
00:02:18,200 –> 00:02:19,600
petite parenthèse,
38
00:02:19,680 –> 00:02:22,480
et il enseignait un sujet appelé…
39
00:02:22,560 –> 00:02:25,240
de nos jours, ce sujet
est enseigné différemment,
40
00:02:25,320 –> 00:02:28,480
mais il est merveilleux,
car c’est la navigation intérieure :
41
00:02:28,560 –> 00:02:30,320
ports, rivières et canaux.
42
00:02:31,200 –> 00:02:34,840
Et je suis tombé amoureux de tout ça
43
00:02:35,680 –> 00:02:39,600
et peut-être que d’une manière œdipienne,
je pensais…
44
00:02:40,440 –> 00:02:43,680
pouvoir aussi être ingénieur,
je ne savais pas…
45
00:02:44,720 –> 00:02:49,760
Mais j’ai compris, avec ça, la question
de la transformation de la nature.
46
00:02:49,840 –> 00:02:53,960
Quand j’ai compris que l’architecture
était consacrée à ça,
47
00:02:54,680 –> 00:02:56,920
à construire la ville,
48
00:02:57,000 –> 00:02:59,520
réaliser l’habitat humain sur la planète,
49
00:02:59,600 –> 00:03:02,840
ça m’a enchanté
et je n’ai pas eu de doutes.
50
00:03:02,920 –> 00:03:05,120
Bien sûr, j’avais des collègues,
51
00:03:05,640 –> 00:03:07,800
d’autres qui eux aussi…
52
00:03:08,920 –> 00:03:12,840
étudiaient l’architecture,
nous échangions donc des idées.
53
00:03:13,280 –> 00:03:16,920
Il s’est alors formé un environnement.
54
00:03:17,000 –> 00:03:22,480
Un paysage très favorable à l’idéalisation
55
00:03:22,560 –> 00:03:26,640
de l’idée d’architecture
comme moyen de connaissance, vous voyez ?
56
00:03:26,720 –> 00:03:29,200
En fait, j’ai suivi une formation
57
00:03:29,280 –> 00:03:32,600
plus dans ma tête
que dans la salle de classe.
58
00:03:42,400 –> 00:03:44,960
L’architecture, c’est en même temps.
59
00:03:45,040 –> 00:03:48,360
Ce n’est pas des parties ajoutées,
60
00:03:48,440 –> 00:03:52,320
mais en même temps
l’art, la science et la technique.
61
00:03:52,400 –> 00:03:53,880
Je vois…
62
00:03:54,560 –> 00:03:55,760
pas seulement moi,
63
00:03:55,840 –> 00:03:58,800
je suis d’accord avec ceux
qui voient les choses ainsi,
64
00:03:58,880 –> 00:04:02,120
l’architecture comme un moyen
de connaissance particulier,
65
00:04:02,200 –> 00:04:04,360
particulier à l’humanité.
66
00:04:04,440 –> 00:04:06,240
Nous naissons architectes.
67
00:04:06,960 –> 00:04:10,360
Quand les hommes ont choisi
de vivre dans une caverne
68
00:04:10,440 –> 00:04:13,680
ou d’être autour du feu,
à trois ou à quatre, peu importe,
69
00:04:13,760 –> 00:04:17,440
ils fabriquaient une maison,
une ville, etc.
70
00:04:23,600 –> 00:04:25,440
Si vous savez ce que vous voulez dire,
71
00:04:25,520 –> 00:04:28,840
dans le cas de l’architecture,
ce que vous voulez construire,
72
00:04:29,240 –> 00:04:32,000
la technique impose le matériau, etc.
73
00:04:32,080 –> 00:04:34,520
C’est la construction
qui impose, pas vous.
74
00:04:34,600 –> 00:04:37,480
En fonction de l’idée,
c’est comme un discours.
75
00:04:38,760 –> 00:04:41,240
Les mots sont imposés
pour que vous disiez cela.
76
00:04:41,320 –> 00:04:44,080
Aujourd’hui, on ne peut plus
faire un pont de pierre
77
00:04:44,160 –> 00:04:48,000
sans matériau d’assemblage, sans ciment.
78
00:04:48,080 –> 00:04:53,080
En fait, on peut. On reproduira
un pont en arche romain, etc.
79
00:04:53,760 –> 00:04:55,440
Alors…
80
00:04:56,640 –> 00:05:02,720
c’est une question de réalisation
de nécessités et de désirs humains.
81
00:05:03,320 –> 00:05:05,040
Toujours, dans l’urgence,
82
00:05:05,520 –> 00:05:08,320
le fait de faire ceci ou cela.
De construire.
83
00:05:08,920 –> 00:05:10,960
Car l’architecte voit,
84
00:05:11,040 –> 00:05:14,800
pas seulement l’architecte,
mais l’architecte voit clairement
85
00:05:15,480 –> 00:05:21,760
que nous sommes, en tant qu’êtres humains,
pendant que nous vivons,
86
00:05:21,840 –> 00:05:25,480
condamnés à transformer
les idées en choses.
87
00:05:25,560 –> 00:05:28,080
Personne ne sait jamais
ce qu’est la vraie idée.
88
00:05:28,560 –> 00:05:31,600
Comme avec une poésie, où il faut écrire
89
00:05:31,680 –> 00:05:34,160
avec les 25 lettres de l’alphabet,
90
00:05:34,240 –> 00:05:37,440
que ce soit en italien, en anglais…
91
00:05:38,080 –> 00:05:40,800
en portugais, quelle que soit la langue.
Vingt-cinq lettres.
92
00:05:41,200 –> 00:05:45,280
Il y a très peu de ressources.
L’imagination est infinie.
93
00:05:51,720 –> 00:05:55,600
Le mot « création » ne me convient pas.
Je ne crée rien.
94
00:05:56,040 –> 00:05:58,320
Le résultat du travail
n’est pas une création.
95
00:05:59,080 –> 00:06:04,600
C’est une conclusion
d’une réflexion dirigée objectivement
96
00:06:05,000 –> 00:06:08,760
en fonction de cette dualité :
nécessités et désirs.
97
00:06:09,320 –> 00:06:14,040
La nécessité d’avoir
un sens pratique pragmatique absolu.
98
00:06:14,840 –> 00:06:17,800
Il est plus confortable
de s’asseoir pour manger.
99
00:06:17,880 –> 00:06:20,600
La chaise est donc une nécessité.
100
00:06:22,000 –> 00:06:26,640
Puis, en fonction de cela, il est facile
de décrire les qualités de la chaise.
101
00:06:26,720 –> 00:06:31,480
Inclinaison, hauteur
par rapport au plan de la table.
102
00:06:31,560 –> 00:06:33,360
Si elle sert à écrire ou à manger.
103
00:06:34,120 –> 00:06:37,760
Néanmoins, concernant le désir,
104
00:06:37,840 –> 00:06:43,240
il est indicible,
l’horizon de la question,
105
00:06:43,920 –> 00:06:47,560
ce désir est en rapport avec le sens,
106
00:06:47,640 –> 00:06:49,320
qui est aussi indicible.
107
00:06:49,400 –> 00:06:52,520
Mais la configuration
de ce que nous appelons « beauté »,
108
00:06:52,600 –> 00:06:56,200
autrement dit, l’objet de cette question,
109
00:06:56,280 –> 00:06:59,760
produire de la beauté,
est de séduire autrui.
110
00:07:09,240 –> 00:07:11,760
À vrai dire,
c’est peut-être mon ignorance,
111
00:07:11,840 –> 00:07:14,080
je ne sais pas vraiment
ce que signifie « brutalisme ».
112
00:07:14,160 –> 00:07:15,160
Conserver…
113
00:07:16,680 –> 00:07:21,920
les constructions, les objets
avec l’apparence exacte
114
00:07:22,000 –> 00:07:24,720
du matériau dont ils sont faits,
par exemple,
115
00:07:24,800 –> 00:07:28,440
laisser le béton sans revêtement, etc.,
116
00:07:28,520 –> 00:07:31,960
c’est peut-être l’un des aspects
du brutalisme.
117
00:07:32,040 –> 00:07:35,720
Mais pour moi, appeler ça brutalisme,
ce n’est pas très bien à mon avis.
118
00:07:36,200 –> 00:07:38,000
Car après tout…
119
00:07:39,160 –> 00:07:40,880
toute cathédrale…
120
00:07:43,240 –> 00:07:46,560
les médiévales ou les gothiques,
toute cathédrale historique…
121
00:07:47,920 –> 00:07:50,760
les pierres n’avaient pas de revêtement.
122
00:07:51,160 –> 00:07:52,560
C’est toujours du brutalisme.
123
00:07:52,640 –> 00:07:55,440
Rien n’est plus brutaliste
qu’une pyramide du Caire.
124
00:07:55,520 –> 00:07:58,280
Je n’y vois donc rien de neuf.
125
00:07:58,360 –> 00:08:01,000
Dans le fait de l’admirer.
126
00:08:01,880 –> 00:08:07,880
En faire un attribut,
un soi-disant désir, émergeant…
127
00:08:08,960 –> 00:08:13,080
du désir de la construction lui-même,
tout à fait clair et visible.
128
00:08:13,160 –> 00:08:17,160
Je trouve cela très constant
dans l’histoire des hommes.
129
00:08:17,240 –> 00:08:19,320
Ce n’est pas d’une époque particulière.
130
00:08:19,400 –> 00:08:23,760
Autrement dit,
pour couper court, comme on dit,
131
00:08:23,840 –> 00:08:27,520
je n’aime pas vraiment l’expression
ni même la définition du brutalisme.
132
00:08:27,600 –> 00:08:31,120
Encore moins appliquées à l’architecture
faite ici, au Brésil.
133
00:08:32,280 –> 00:08:36,560
Tout ce qui est essentiel en Amérique
était censé être comme ça.
134
00:08:36,640 –> 00:08:38,520
Le reste est du pur colonialisme.
135
00:08:38,600 –> 00:08:42,600
Représenter ce qu’ils sont.
Pas ce que nous sommes.
136
00:08:43,800 –> 00:08:45,400
Ou ce que nous voulons être.
137
00:08:45,480 –> 00:08:47,160
En fait, nous ne sommes rien.
138
00:08:47,240 –> 00:08:49,360
C’est un discours qui commence
139
00:08:49,440 –> 00:08:53,280
dans une conscience formée,
d’une nouvelle manière,
140
00:08:53,360 –> 00:08:57,640
avant l’exubérance
de la nature qui était ici,
141
00:08:57,720 –> 00:09:01,160
principalement avec les connaissances
des autochtones d’ici
142
00:09:01,240 –> 00:09:04,240
qui avaient des techniques
et des façons de faire
143
00:09:04,680 –> 00:09:08,360
d’excellence, du point de vue urbaniste,
144
00:09:08,440 –> 00:09:11,320
qui ont été, en fait, massacrés, méprisés
145
00:09:11,400 –> 00:09:13,960
par la stupidité
des politiques coloniales.
146
00:09:15,480 –> 00:09:22,440
Pour moi, je ne suis pas
remarquablement bon vivant.
147
00:09:23,040 –> 00:09:24,440
Je vis bien avec mes amis,
148
00:09:24,520 –> 00:09:28,240
donc, dans ce cas, ce sont tous
aussi de bons vivants, non ?
149
00:09:28,320 –> 00:09:31,400
J’aime vraiment quitter le bureau,
j’ai toujours fait ça…
150
00:09:32,560 –> 00:09:34,600
à 17h30, 18h.
151
00:09:35,360 –> 00:09:37,520
J’ai souvent passé trois…
152
00:09:37,600 –> 00:09:42,480
J’ai déjà passé deux nuits d’affilée
au bureau, sans dormir,
153
00:09:42,560 –> 00:09:46,280
pour remettre un projet, etc.
Mais c’est une exception.
154
00:09:46,600 –> 00:09:48,400
Normalement je faisais ainsi :
155
00:09:48,480 –> 00:09:52,160
à 17h30, j’allais à un certain bar.
156
00:09:52,240 –> 00:09:56,480
São Paulo en a beaucoup,
mais mes amis allaient à un certain bar.
157
00:09:57,200 –> 00:10:02,440
Ils y étaient tous,
on n’avait même pas une table fixe.
158
00:10:02,520 –> 00:10:05,680
J’allais au bar, puis je m’asseyais
à une table ou une autre.
159
00:10:05,760 –> 00:10:09,080
C’était très amusant.
Et je partais tard le soir.
160
00:10:10,000 –> 00:10:12,400
Mais comme vous voyez, d’un autre côté,
161
00:10:13,120 –> 00:10:15,680
je m’excuse de le dire moi-même,
162
00:10:15,760 –> 00:10:19,240
mais j’ai l’impression que,
pour l’intérêt des autres,
163
00:10:19,320 –> 00:10:21,080
mon travail est bien fait.
164
00:10:21,640 –> 00:10:23,040
Donc…
165
00:10:25,000 –> 00:10:27,280
je suis très dévoué à mon travail.
166
00:10:28,040 –> 00:10:32,880
Mais… quand le travail est fini,
il faut s’amuser.
English Subtitles
1
00:00:13,360 –> 00:00:19,320
I am an architect
who graduated here in Sao Paulo
2
00:00:20,400 –> 00:00:22,360
from Mackenzie University,
3
00:00:22,440 –> 00:00:25,160
and I was born
in the state of Espírito Santo,
4
00:00:25,760 –> 00:00:27,960
which is to the north of Rio de Janeiro,
5
00:00:28,040 –> 00:00:30,320
between Rio de Janeiro and Bahia.
6
00:00:30,400 –> 00:00:32,440
My mother’s family is from there.
7
00:00:32,520 –> 00:00:36,000
They were Italian immigrants
who landed there.
8
00:00:36,320 –> 00:00:39,400
They arrived here
married with two children.
9
00:00:39,480 –> 00:00:42,920
My mother was the first daughter
who was born in Brazil.
10
00:00:43,720 –> 00:00:46,840
My father’s family is from Bahia.
11
00:00:48,160 –> 00:00:49,760
However, they went to Rio de Janeiro.
12
00:00:49,840 –> 00:00:52,400
My father studied engineering
in Rio de Janeiro.
13
00:00:52,480 –> 00:00:56,560
After graduating, he went
to Espírito Santo to build a bridge
14
00:00:56,640 –> 00:00:59,400
and married the daughter
of an Italian contractor
15
00:00:59,480 –> 00:01:01,600
he met there. That’s my origin.
16
00:01:01,680 –> 00:01:05,240
And so my surname comes
from my father’s family,
17
00:01:05,320 –> 00:01:07,120
which is Mendes da Rocha.
18
00:01:07,880 –> 00:01:10,200
Portuguese origin, undoubtedly.
19
00:01:10,960 –> 00:01:15,080
I’m not on the records with the surname
of my mother’s family, which is…
20
00:01:16,160 –> 00:01:17,640
Terencio Serafini.
21
00:01:17,720 –> 00:01:22,800
But I came with my father
and my mother to São Paulo,
22
00:01:22,880 –> 00:01:27,280
when I was five, six years old,
and we never left here.
23
00:01:27,360 –> 00:01:30,400
My mother was a teacher
24
00:01:30,480 –> 00:01:34,040
and she passed a government test
25
00:01:34,120 –> 00:01:36,240
to work at a public school as a teacher.
26
00:01:36,320 –> 00:01:39,720
So she educated me
with an eye to the future,
27
00:01:40,200 –> 00:01:42,000
that my father, being an engineer,
28
00:01:42,080 –> 00:01:46,640
you can imagine the reason
why I became an architect, right?
29
00:01:55,200 –> 00:01:58,400
My interest in architecture arose,
30
00:01:59,400 –> 00:02:02,560
if it’s not too prosaic to say that,
31
00:02:02,640 –> 00:02:06,280
from the issue of architecture itself,
when I realized that
32
00:02:06,360 –> 00:02:09,200
faced with engineering,
which I had been educated in,
33
00:02:09,280 –> 00:02:10,480
seeing my father…
34
00:02:10,560 –> 00:02:13,040
My father was a teacher
at the polytechnic school
35
00:02:13,120 –> 00:02:14,520
of the University of São Paulo.
36
00:02:14,600 –> 00:02:18,120
He became a very illustrious man
as an engineer,
37
00:02:18,200 –> 00:02:19,600
a small parenthesis,
38
00:02:19,680 –> 00:02:22,480
and he taught a subject called…
39
00:02:22,560 –> 00:02:25,240
Nowadays this subject
is taught differently,
40
00:02:25,320 –> 00:02:26,480
but it’s wonderful,
41
00:02:26,560 –> 00:02:30,320
because it’s Internal Navigation:
Ports, Rivers and Channels.
42
00:02:31,200 –> 00:02:34,840
And I fell in love with all of this,
43
00:02:35,680 –> 00:02:39,600
and perhaps, in some Oedipean way,
I kind of thought
44
00:02:40,440 –> 00:02:43,600
that I could also be an engineer,
I didn’t know…
45
00:02:44,720 –> 00:02:49,760
But in all of that I saw
this issue of transforming nature.
46
00:02:49,840 –> 00:02:53,960
When I realized that architecture
was dedicated to just that,
47
00:02:54,680 –> 00:02:56,920
to build a city, let’s say,
48
00:02:57,000 –> 00:02:59,520
forming a human habitat on the planet,
49
00:02:59,600 –> 00:03:02,840
I loved it and didn’t have any doubts.
50
00:03:02,920 –> 00:03:05,120
Of course I had colleagues,
51
00:03:05,640 –> 00:03:07,800
some others who also…
52
00:03:08,920 –> 00:03:12,840
studied architecture,
so ideas were exchanged.
53
00:03:13,280 –> 00:03:16,920
A certain environment was created,
54
00:03:17,000 –> 00:03:22,480
a very favorable backdrop
in regards to the idealization
55
00:03:22,560 –> 00:03:26,640
of the idea of architecture
as a means of knowledge, you know?
56
00:03:26,720 –> 00:03:29,200
I took a course like, as it were,
57
00:03:29,280 –> 00:03:32,600
more inside my head
than in the classroom.
58
00:03:42,400 –> 00:03:44,960
Architecture exists in a moment.
59
00:03:45,040 –> 00:03:48,360
It’s not added parts.
60
00:03:48,440 –> 00:03:52,320
But at the same time,
it’s art, science and technique.
61
00:03:52,400 –> 00:03:53,880
I see…
62
00:03:54,560 –> 00:03:55,760
It’s not only me.
63
00:03:55,840 –> 00:03:58,800
I agree with those who see it like that.
64
00:03:58,880 –> 00:04:04,360
Architecture is a peculiar means
of knowledge, peculiar to mankind.
65
00:04:04,440 –> 00:04:06,240
We are born architects.
66
00:04:06,960 –> 00:04:10,360
When man chose to live in a cave,
67
00:04:10,440 –> 00:04:13,680
remaining around a fire,
three or four people, whatever,
68
00:04:13,760 –> 00:04:17,440
they were making a house, a city, etc.
69
00:04:23,600 –> 00:04:27,520
If you understand me,
in case of the architecture,
70
00:04:27,600 –> 00:04:32,000
the technique imposes the material
and such for what you want to build.
71
00:04:32,080 –> 00:04:34,520
The construction
is the one with preference, not you.
72
00:04:34,600 –> 00:04:37,480
Following this idea,
it is like a discourse.
73
00:04:38,760 –> 00:04:41,240
The words are imposed
in order for you to speak.
74
00:04:41,320 –> 00:04:44,080
Today you cannot make a stone bridge
75
00:04:44,160 –> 00:04:48,000
without agglutinate material,
without cement anymore…
76
00:04:48,080 –> 00:04:49,280
Actually, you can.
77
00:04:49,360 –> 00:04:53,080
You are going to recreate
a Roman arch bridge, etc.
78
00:04:53,760 –> 00:04:55,440
So…
79
00:04:56,640 –> 00:05:02,720
it is a question of fulfilling
human necessities and wishes.
80
00:05:03,320 –> 00:05:05,040
It’s always urgent,
81
00:05:05,520 –> 00:05:08,320
the matter of doing this or that,
of building.
82
00:05:08,920 –> 00:05:10,960
Because the architect sees,
83
00:05:11,040 –> 00:05:14,800
and not only the architect,
but the architect sees clearly
84
00:05:15,480 –> 00:05:20,520
that we, as human beings,
85
00:05:20,600 –> 00:05:25,480
are condemned to transform ideas
into things while living.
86
00:05:25,560 –> 00:05:28,080
Nobody ever knows
what the true idea is.
87
00:05:28,560 –> 00:05:31,600
And so it is with poetry,
you have to write
88
00:05:31,680 –> 00:05:34,160
with the 25 letters of the alphabet,
89
00:05:34,240 –> 00:05:38,840
no matter whether it is Italian,
English, Portuguese…
90
00:05:38,920 –> 00:05:40,800
the language doesn’t matter. 25 letters.
91
00:05:41,200 –> 00:05:45,280
There are very little resources.
The imagination is infinite.
92
00:05:51,720 –> 00:05:55,600
The word « creation » does not please me.
I don’t create anything.
93
00:05:56,040 –> 00:05:58,320
The result of the work is not a creation.
94
00:05:59,080 –> 00:06:04,600
It is a conclusion
of an objectively directed reflection
95
00:06:05,000 –> 00:06:08,760
for this dualism:
necessities and wishes.
96
00:06:09,320 –> 00:06:14,040
The necessity of having an absolute,
practical, pragmatic sense.
97
00:06:14,440 –> 00:06:17,800
Sitting to eat is more comfortable.
98
00:06:17,880 –> 00:06:20,600
So the chair is necessary.
99
00:06:22,000 –> 00:06:26,640
Then for the necessities, it is easy
to describe the virtues of the chair.
100
00:06:26,720 –> 00:06:31,480
The incline of the back,
the height in relation to the table level.
101
00:06:31,560 –> 00:06:33,360
If it’s for writing or eating.
102
00:06:34,120 –> 00:06:37,760
However, regarding the wish,
103
00:06:37,840 –> 00:06:43,240
the possibilities of this question
are untold.
104
00:06:43,920 –> 00:06:47,560
This wish has to do
with the sense,
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which is also inexpressible,
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of the configuration
of what we call beauty.
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In other words,
the object of this question,
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producing beauty,
is to seduce the others.
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To tell the truth,
perhaps it’s my ignorance,
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but I don’t really know
what « Brutalism » means.
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Maintaining…
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the construction, the objects
with the exact appearance
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of the material with which
it was made, for example,
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to leave the concrete
without an overlay and such,
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maybe that’s one of the aspects
of Brutalism.
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But calling it Brutalism
is not very nice, in my opinion.
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Because, after all, any cathedral…
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medieval or Gothic ones,
any historical cathedral…
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those stones were not coated.
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It is always Brutalism.
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Nothing is more brutalist
than a pyramid in Cairo.
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So, I don’t see big news in that,
in admiring that.
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Making that attribute,
that wish, arise…
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from the construction itself,
quite clear and visible.
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I think it’s a constant
in the history of men.
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It’s not from this or that time.
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In other words, to sum up
the conversation, as we say,
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I don’t really like the expression
or even the definition of Brutalism,
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even less when applied to the architecture
done here in Brazil.
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Everything that is essential
in America was expected to be like this.
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The rest is pure colonialism,
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representing what they are,
not what we are.
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Or what we want to be.
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We are nothing, actually.
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It is a discourse that begins
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in a conscience that is formed
in a new way,
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in the presence of the exuberance
of nature that was here,
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mainly with the knowledge of the natives
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who had techniques and ways
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of excellence,
from the town planning point of view,
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and who were, in fact,
massacred and despised
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by the stupidity of colonial politics.
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I’m not a bon vivant,
in my opinion, in an noteworthy way.
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I live well with my friends,
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in such a way that all of them
are also bons vivants, right?
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00:09:28,320 –> 00:09:31,400
I really like to leave the office behind.
I’ve always done that.
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At 5:30 or 6:00 in the evening…
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00:09:35,360 –> 00:09:37,520
Many times I spent three…
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two nights in a row I went
without sleep, in the office,
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to hand in a project or whatnot.
But this is an exception.
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Normally I did this:
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at 5:30 p.m. I would go to a certain bar.
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São Paulo has many,
but for my friends, we had this one.
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And all my friends were there.
We didn’t have a usual table.
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I’d go to the bar,
then I’d sit at one table or another,
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00:10:05,760 –> 00:10:09,080
and it was very fun.
And I’d leave late at night.
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As you can see, on the other hand,
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I apologize for saying this myself,
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00:10:15,760 –> 00:10:19,240
but I have the impression that,
regarding others’ interests,
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my work is well done.
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So…
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I’m very dedicated to my work.
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But… when the work is done,
it’s all about having fun.
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